Focusing on specific examples of metrics within your organization and any positive changes in those metrics can be powerful.
Employee engagement is a critical driver of organizational success, especially today. In this insightful conversation with Jonathan Westover, a global thought leader in HR and workplace innovation, we delve into the evolution of employee engagement, the challenges organizations face today, and how data and real-world case studies can offer actionable solutions.
Jonathan also offers some insight on how to deal with the overwhelm of AI tools – and what resources you can use to keep yourself updated with HR trends. (believe it or not, one of them is TikTok!)
Q: Before we get started, can we clarify the difference between the terms employee engagement, employee experience, and employee job satisfaction?
Jonathan: As we think about these terms—they do often get used interchangeably. While there are academic definitions, the practical application within an organization is what truly matters. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what the label is, as long as everyone understands the objective.
From an academic standpoint, concepts like job satisfaction and employee engagement have been studied extensively.
- Job satisfaction came first, along with concepts like the job characteristics model. Job satisfaction research spans about a century, taking hold with models like the Hackman and Oldham job characteristics model about 50-60 years ago. It’s been quantitatively studied for decades, but it has limitations.
- Engagement, on the other hand, emerged as a metric due to the limitations of job satisfaction. When leaders and researchers looked at job satisfaction, they had in mind something closer to employee engagement—a concept that is directly tied to performance and the way employees interact with their day-to-day tasks, not just their attitudes.
Whether someone likes or dislikes their work, or feels happy or dissatisfied with their job, they can still be engaged if they are actively involved and work well with others.
There is still ongoing research on both job satisfaction and employee engagement, as they are linked to numerous organizational outcomes, including performance, retention, absenteeism, and both positive and negative individual, team, and organizational impacts.
- More recently, the concept of employee experience has emerged, addressing the limitations of job satisfaction and engagement. We’re now looking beyond attitudes or task engagement, aiming to understand the holistic experience of the employee—the full scope of an employee’s interaction with all aspects of the organization. Over the last decade, it has gained traction in workplace literature and people management as an ideal metric. However, measuring employee experience today remains a challenge.
For employee engagement, there are established scales, like the Gallup Q12, along with several accepted metrics in the literature. Job satisfaction has similar well-accepted scales. With employee experience, it’s new enough that we don’t have a universally accepted measurement tool, though there are various options available.
To address your question, it ultimately comes down to what the organization seeks. Are they trying to understand employee attitudes and preferences? Are they interested in how employees engage with their work? Or are they aiming to understand the holistic nature of the employee’s experience?
Q: So essentially there was an evolution from job satisfaction to engagement, and now employee experience? What is the state of employee experience today?
Jonathan: Yes, absolutely. This progression happens frequently in both academic and organizational settings—you explore one path, gain insights, but hit limitations. From there, a new area develops, which is what happened with job satisfaction. Then, employee engagement emerged, faced limitations, and now we have employee experience.
It makes one wonder what the next evolution might be in another decade.
I’m deeply interested in employee experience because it captures the holistic journey—from an employee’s first connection with the organization, like seeing a job ad, all the way to their exit interview.
Employee experience is about making every aspect of that journey positive—not just from a job satisfaction standpoint, but also ensuring it’s engaging. There are also elements that don’t fit neatly into job satisfaction or employee engagement, which is what employee experience aims to encompass. It’s a holistic construct—a big tent concept meant to cover a wide range of factors.
The key question becomes, what exactly are you trying to measure? Once that’s clear, you can focus on measuring that specific aspect.
Q: Data can be a big factor in measuring these concepts and getting leadership support—what kinds of data or stories tend to work best?
Jonathan: With employee engagement,
- You can start with surveys. Annual surveys are beneficial, as are more immediate, just-in-time surveys to gauge daily experiences and attitudes. These can help track the general sentiment and where people stand.
- And then, think about how this links with business outcomes. Look at metrics such as turnover rates, absenteeism, and productivity. This varies by organization and team, depending on the type of work. If engagement levels are high, productivity should also be high. It’s essential to define what productivity metrics look like for your team and organization, but high engagement typically correlates with strong productivity metrics.
- You should also see positive customer feedback scores, which should be tracked consistently.
- Positive management feedback and 360 reviews are key indicators. For an engaged employee, annual 360 reviews should reflect this, with positive feedback from supervisors, direct reports, peers, and other stakeholders.
- Metrics like training participation rates and internal mobility rates between teams can also track engagement trends over time.
Ultimately, it depends on the organization’s goals and what they aim to measure, but these are some valuable metrics to consider.
Additional Resources by Springworks:
- Explore our “Engagement Data + Case Studies Library” for valuable tips and a comprehensive list of data points and case studies to fortify your business case.
- Use the Impact Mapping outline to link Employee Engagement with Organizational Goals.
Q: There’s clearly a domino effect—when employees are engaged, the culture aligns with the workforce, productivity rises, and ultimately, it contributes to profits. But how do you present this in a convincing way to the C-Suite?
Jonathan: That’s a great question. While you can point to studies, organizations often don’t give much weight to external data. Focusing on specific examples of metrics within your organization and any positive changes in those metrics can be powerful.
For example,
- if you can show a 10% decrease in turnover due to engagement efforts, that’s significant because turnover is costly. Linking a 10% drop in turnover to savings in employment and training costs represents real savings.
- You could also create engagement multipliers, showing how engaged employees lead to compounding benefits, like reduced turnover costs, higher customer retention, increased sales, and referrals from satisfied clients.
- Another instance could be showing how an engaged employee contributes to a 3x positive impact on customer retention rates compared to an average employee, that’s impactful.
When senior leadership sees these numbers, it becomes clear. HR then shifts from being a cost center to becoming a revenue generator.
Additional Resources:
- To accurately assess how these insights translate to your specific organizational context, you are encouraged to utilize the provided Cost of Employee Disengagement Calculator. This tool will assist in evaluating the financial burden of disengagement, offering a clearer perspective on the urgency and importance of addressing this critical workplace issue.
Q: Can you think of any case studies or examples where leaders finally had to tackle engagement challenges?
Secondly, have you seen that involving leadership early in designing these programs makes a difference? If you have an example that combines both aspects, I’d love for you to share it.
Jonathan: Sure, there are numerous examples of companies tackling employee engagement issues, especially those under scrutiny.
For instance, Amazon is often referenced for its impressive supply chain and revenue but is not always seen positively from a people and HR perspective. Their culture, which is highly demanding, has led to burnout in some roles and facilities. When Amazon faced these engagement challenges, they had to consider how to address them.
How they addressed it: Amazon, under pressure, has been working on initiatives like raising wages, creating career development programs, and emphasizing work-life balance to improve employee experience. They launched programs with universities to offer employees tuition reimbursement and career pathways, aiming to enhance both intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. While there’s still progress to be made, these efforts target both public perception and actual employee experience issues.
Similarly, Wells Fargo had a significant scandal a few years ago with fake bank accounts. This damaged trust in leadership and engagement across the bank, primarily due to a hyper-competitive culture and pressure on frontline employees. This environment led to employees creating fake accounts to meet targets.
How they addressed it: Wells Fargo, on the other hand, had to go back to the drawing board. They restructured their incentive system, enhanced complaint and feedback processes, communicated new cultural values, and focused on genuinely embodying these values. They invested significant time and energy into improving both their public and internal image after acknowledging and addressing the toxic environment they had created.
Additional Read:
Q: Would you say that the increasing interconnectedness between a company’s internal and external image is a key reason why engagement has become such a high priority over the past year?
Jonathan: Absolutely. Many companies are working on improving both internal and external perceptions.
Walmart, for instance, traditionally wasn’t seen as a company focused on employee satisfaction, fair wages, or benefits. However, over the last five to ten years, they’ve invested close to a billion dollars in employee development programs, increasing wages, and providing more advancement opportunities and benefits. They still have a long way to go, but progress has been made.
The key point is that every organization is a work in progress.
Some companies have a poor reputation, which affects both public perception and customer trust. For a bank like Wells Fargo, customer trust is essential. If they don’t reestablish it quickly, they risk losing their customer base, as trust is crucial for any financial institution. Once customer trust is regained, the focus shifts to ensuring the workforce feels valued—offering fair treatment, respect, a living wage, and opportunities for advancement. This basic standard is expected, yet some companies have struggled to meet it.
From my experience, most organizations, regardless of size, have areas that need improvement.
Employee engagement is challenging because human interactions are inherently complex. Creating and maintaining positive workplace environments where everyone can function productively is no easy task.
Q: For HR professionals in early-stage startups with little to no budget, what engagement initiatives can they implement cost-effectively?
Jonathan: There are plenty of low-cost ways to engage employees.
- Creating affinity groups or ERGs can provide support and build community. These groups require minimal resources—maybe just a small budget for refreshments. They can be especially powerful for employees from diverse or marginalized backgrounds, giving them a sense of belonging.
- Another simple yet effective approach is conducting pulse surveys. If you have someone on staff with basic research skills, you can design simple surveys to check in on employee sentiment regularly. With AI tools available, creating and analyzing pulse surveys has become even more accessible. Beyond the time to administer and analyze them, they cost very little.
- Starting with a regular cadence of coaching and mentoring conversations creates a strong culture that new employees will adopt naturally as the company sales.
Building these norms early on is far more effective than attempting to impose culture changes on a large, established organization.
Q: Our readers love to know what kinds of HR tech other leaders are exploring—not necessarily limited to employee engagement. Is there anything new and innovative in HR tech that you’re excited about?
Jonathan: That’s a great question, and honestly a challenging one because new tools are emerging almost weekly with the rise of generative AI and large language models. While I don’t have a single standout tool to share, I do recommend dedicating time each week to exploring new tools. Just this past week, I tried three new ones, and by the time this is released, there will probably be even more.
I try to spend a few hours each week testing out new tools to see if they’re useful and, if so, how they might fit into specific use cases. Some tools may not be the right fit, but exploring them helps me stay aware of what’s available. I can then catalog them for future recommendations or revisit them when the need arises.
What I wouldn’t recommend is constantly implementing every new tool—that would be overwhelming and counterproductive. It’s best to be selective, focusing on tools that align with your organization’s specific needs and use cases. The only way to identify those is by setting aside time to experiment. Many people feel overwhelmed or intimidated by the influx of tech, and they may avoid exploring it altogether, which won’t help them reach their goals.
Q: How do you keep track of the latest HR tools? Are there any newsletters, podcasts, or resources you follow?
Jonathan H. Westover: Yes, my podcast is the Human Capital Leadership Podcast, where I interview HR leaders, CEOs, and executives, including some from HR tech firms. While it’s not an exclusively HR tech podcast, I do often come across new tools through my guests. I release several episodes each week, so interviewing many industry professionals keeps me informed.
For a real thought leader in HR tech, I’d recommend following Josh Bersin on LinkedIn. He consistently shares valuable insights on HR technology. Beyond that, following relevant content creators on LinkedIn helps; once you start, the algorithm will start suggesting similar content.
Surprisingly, TikTok is also a great resource. By training the algorithm, you can get tailored, real-time content. Searching for HR and AI-related content quickly teaches the algorithm to serve more relevant videos. TikTok’s algorithm is incredibly effective, so it’s a unique and surprisingly valuable source for staying up to date with the latest trends in HR tech.
